Dealing with Feedback

How do you deal with feedback?

Here i want to hear specially from the more experienced folks.
If we take photography as a creative / artistic endeavor there must be a degree of subjectivity.
What advice would you give to novice photographers with regards to feedback?
I found critique and feedback very valuable but how can one differentiate between objective feedback that make the photo work vs subjective matters where the person providing the feedback may have a point but your way still works?

The one answer i know is that this will probably come naturally with experience. I just wonder if there is further insight that perhaps you wish someone told you when you were a beginner

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Don’t have a thin skin for one thing, take all critiques in stride, learn what you can and try things
that people suggest

Most people don’t like critiques obviously as critique sites are dying out, they would just rather post on IG or Facebook and get likes

If someone wants to get better in photography or anything, getting feedback and using it helps a lot. It helps to have like minded friends, a group of us here in Portland critique each others stuff for fun and to improve and get other points of view.

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For sure
I am thrilled honestly to find this community.
I was in photogroups on Facebook where all you get is likes or those one word good shots much like instagram which is honestly not helpful
I mean i expect that from people have no idea about photography but i expect photographers to shred my work apart so i can learn :grimacing:

I agree with Dan’s comment. I think this is important, especially for new photographers to learn early on - the critiques are intended to help the photographer learn and improve their skills. The critiques should be taken as suggestions for improvement, as they are intended. I’ve learned many new skills and greatly improved my photography as a result of my membership here on NPN.

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I think critiques should be taken as a new way to look at your own work. There are no right or wrongs, it is whatever works for the photographer or the viewer. I have had countless suggestions on my images that I don’t agree with, but I am more than happy to have them, as it gives me another set of eyes through which to view my images. Embrace what YOU think helps your image and just appreciate the thought on what doesn’t.

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What Harley said. You’re going to get a lot of suggestions that perhaps don’t match what you envision for the photo. Certainly acknowledge them (at least here on NPN) because that person put some thought into your work and took the trouble to comment, but in the end, use only what works for you. And definitely don’t have a thin skin.

It helps the person giving critique if they know what your intent is. For example, if you want to convey gentle calmness, but the photo has a lot of jagged, angled lines and high contrast, that would guide the reviewer in their critique to get you closer to what you want.

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When I do judging for photography events, I always start my comments with this.

" I’m not going to critique you, I’m providing a critique of your photograph. Yes, I know it may be hard to separate those, but you need to. "

As noted above, don’t have thin skin, don’t take critiques personally. People are giving the gift of feedback in viewing your image. There is no right or wrong, but you might hear or read something in a comment that resonates with you and makes you change the way you viewed the image.

Remember Ansel Adams famous quote “There are always two people in every picture, the photographer, and the viewer”.

You were there. The viewer is giving you their thoughts that you were able to convey via your image.

Feedback is a gift.

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On point
Truly feedback is a gift generally not just in photography

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Lots of great input here, and while I’m hardly one of the “experienced folks,” I’ll chime in because I’ve thought about this question before.

Barring technicalities, I think it’s important to understand that any feedback you receive is just another artist’s opinion, which will be colored by their own aesthetic preferences and their own interpretation of the image. As such, in my opinion, the best thing you can do when requesting constructive feedback is describe your intent with the image, as @Bonnie_Lampley mentioned. This might include details about your aesthetic preferences, the story you’re trying to tell, the mood you hope to convey, etc. This should help tailor the feedback you receive to your particular image and your particular goals for that image.

But beyond that, I think it’s important for new photographers to pay attention to their own voice and their own instincts. Understand that (1) the feedback you receive from others is subjective, (2) not all advice is good advice, and (3) you are not obligated to make any changes to your images (or future images) that you don’t agree with.

I think @Harley_Goldman hit the nail on the head:

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Echoing the above comments, there is an old Latin saying: " De gustibus non est disputandum", or in English “There is no arguing with taste”. What I love about this forum is discovering what other people’s tastes about my photos are!

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I’ll go against the grain here and say it’s a great mistake to think that every critique is just another person’s opinion, no better and no worse than anyone elses. It’s also a mistake to think that there is no right or wrong and it’s just a matter of your taste or how you perceive things. As I wrote in NPN 1.0 - if all images are of equal worth then there would be no point in having art museums, everything is a work of art. There is good work and bad work and those who heed criticism are the ones who improve. You will find many people who are stuck at a plateau in their growth as a photographer. In almost all cases this is due to discarding advise and thinking that the advisor know no more about photography than you do. That attitude is the best way to remain mediocre.

Since you have asked this question it’s clear that you want to grow as a photographer. But who do you listen to when there are opposing suggestions to your post? If you’re a new photographer you can’t tell a good suggestion from a bad one. By bad I mean from an inexperienced one. One way is to look at their work. If you like what the photographer is doing you are more likely to heed their advice. It’s like those workshop around the country. You go to the one based upon who teaches it.

There is only so much a website can provide for growth. It should be supplemented with books, workshops, and visits to museums. I did this as my primary way of learning. Comments here are usually given on the processing of images. Dodge here. Add space at the edge. Remove a hot spot. (I used a level 4 layer here and a TK triple play there). That’s valuable but of small importance. The real goal is to learn how to shoot in the field. Not to fix an image but how to create an image to be fixed. There is a connection between the two but not a very strong one. It’s hard from the critiques received here to greatly improve just by themselves. My advice is to pay more attention to comments on what you’re trying to convey than ones that are essentially cosmetic in nature . Those suggestions could help you make decisions in the field on how to see better and how to convey your ideas unto an image. The worst thing is not a bad image but an image that says the same things everyone else has said over and over. That kind of feedback is seldom given here.

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@Aref,

Such a good topic. I’m by no means very experienced which is why I am guessing this topic is so interesting to me. One thing that I’ve been learning slowly is much what Igor said.

When I started it was hard to sift through all the feedback. And moreover, we humans are generally not very good at humbling ourselves to receive feedback. I’m still working on identifying what to put into place and how to accept what feedback I get, but I’ve certainly come to value the feedback focused on what my photo conveys rather than how it looks.

I suspect for many of us the operational skills in photography come pretty quickly—getting to know your gear, focusing, exposure, essentials of composition, basic and even advanced editing, etc. But being cognizant of showing emotion, telling a story, etc is hard when the light is going off and you have mere minutes to make something special. Critique can be a form of debriefing to identify what works and what didn’t; it’s training for the next shoot.

When I first joined NPN two years ago or so, my wife asked for the details of what I was spending our money on. When I told her I’m paying to publish my photos on a forum so people will critique them, she responded, “Are you sure that’s a good use of $50?”

Absolutely.

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You have already gotten a lot of good comments here. I think the objective vs. subjective part is the key, and it ties into a lot of what @Igor_Doncov discussed in his comments. The objective comments are generally the technical things (clone this, crop that, fix exposure). These are the easiest things to comment on, which is why they comprise the majority of things mentioned in critiques at NPN. And images from less experienced photographers usually need more of those type of comments because they haven’t fully learned how to self identify these problems.

Critiquing subjective things is much harder for the person doing the commenting to do, which is why we have so few of these type of comments here at NPN. I’m not talking about White Balance (which is subjective and a creative choice), but rather does the sum total of the image have high impact, or to evoke an emotional response in the viewer. Does it transcend documentary recording and instead have artistic merit. It’s hard to define these things in words, but many experienced photographers generally know it when they see it. And if you are less experienced, you don’t always know what you don’t know. As Igor said pay attention to the comments of people here whose images you admire. They are going to be on point for what you want to accomplish. But recognize that not all people here at NPN shoot for the same reasons, and their comments vary accordingly. But when 3 or 4 experienced shooters all give you the same comment, it’s usually a sign to pay attention to it, even if you disagree, otherwise you risk getting stuck at the plateau of mediocrity Igor mentioned

It depends if “your way still works” for a specific purpose /objective. If the goal for your photography is to get more likes at Instagram, all you need is the crop/clone/ objective comments, and you may not even need a lot of those given who the casual viewer is on social media. If your goal is to sell prints, well that involves a totally different type of viewer/customer, for example high saturation, tripod hole location images might sell well to certain customers, but they might not be received well here at NPN. For the NPN landscape critique forum, there are many folks whose goal is to create artistic/creative images for their own satisfaction, thus we are yet another type of viewer, who has their own view of what works.

But Igor is right, the more you can think about what works not just technically, but more importantly, creatively, while you are in the field, the faster your work will improve. Many folks both shooting and critiquing images tend to get bogged down in the technical stuff. Often this is at the expense of thinking hard about the subjective stuff, before you trip the shutter. I just wish I had a dollar for every post where the photographer proudly discusses how they used focus stacking, exposure blending, etc. and then they forget the nuances of composition and light, and how those things affect the creative choices they should be making in the field. Focus stacking does not give an image an emotional impact, yet if you spend more time thinking about that in the field, the creative side can suffer. It’s nearly impossible to significantly alter the subjective stuff in post processing, it needs to be an inherent and important part of your field work.

For example, in landscape photography, do you think about objects as subjects or as design elements? Many less experienced shooters look for subjects, and more experienced shooters look for design elements rather than subjects. Design elements (lines, shapes, shadows, contrast) go a lot further in making images more artistic than having a good subject does.

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Lots of good comments here. I personally prefer when someone critiques. And if someone actually does it on Instagram i always thank them.

Yes photography is so subjective. But i also feel like we put so much effort and are so invested in out own images that you can’t see what other people see. I think you have to take a step back and ask yourself if you think the critique will make a better image. And if so learn from it. If you don’t feel it would make that image better that’s ok but you might find yourself in a situation some day where their suggesting would work better. An example of this is the Ring-necked Duck i posted here yesterday. One comment had to do about the lack of reflection of the head of the duck because i used some grasses as a foreground element. That didn’t even cross my mind when i processed the image. I do think his comment would have made a better image.

I can attest to what Dan said above. I shoot with him quite often. We email images back and forth all the time. Just yesterday i sent him 3 images. He loved 2 of them. One he had a critique about. and while the image was a nice image and would probably do well on Instagram his critique would have made a better image.

When i met up with Dan and a few other people here in Portland a few years ago is when i stopped taking snapshots and started taking images. You can grow really quickly as a photographer when you open your self up.

Long story short don’t take it personal and learn from it. You might not agree with every critique and that’s ok. Critiques are how we learn and grow as photographers.

Thanks
Ryan

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I think the feedback you mention at the end there is rare because it would be criticism of what subject someone chose to shoot. Ultimately, that growth isn’t gonna come from critiques of your existing work. What would someone say? “I’ve seen this before, go find something new”

Each of us has to work that part out on our own which is how pretty much every art form is learned. Start by working through the common scenes at common locations, then common types of scenes, and then finding something unique on your own.

Yes, that’s blunt but it’s something that you often think about when you see some of the images. Whether this is more beneficial or actually destructive is something to argue about. Sometimes it’s just one blunt comment that turns a person around. There was a webinar I saw recently where the host said he was told his work was rejected because “Ansel has already done Ansel. You do your own work”. Or something to that effect. And it changed the whole trajectory of his career.

Good photography, I believe, is about the photographer and not the subject. The work is unique because we are all different. When the image is about the subject you get repetition. How many times can you look at a images of waterfalls before it does nothing for you. Yes, there are plenty of dental offices and hospital walls where such images are common. I’m more interested in fine art photography. Perhaps I should have stated that.

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It seems to me that a conversation on feedback needs to be turned around a little bit. Certainly all of us on NPN are at different points in our photographic and creative progression. We are all looking for different things. Early on, help with technical aspects of focus, processing, etc may be more helpful. Later on, assessment of creativity, meaning, and originality are probably more helpful. So I would pose that the impetus is actually on the one posting the image to set themselves up for not only receiving feedback–critical or complimentary–but to provoke helpful feedback. It’s not just being in the mental space to receive critique. Understanding what you want out of critique when posting can be helpful for both the photographer and the one giving critique.

I went back and looked at The Art of Image Critique which is found in the About the Image Critiques post pinned at the top of the critique forum. I skimmed it when I joined, but I think it was helpful to look back over it now that I’ve been posting for a while. Interestingly, I recall the portion of the article about how to write effective critique, but I didn’t remember the information about doing the posting.

For those posting an image, it’s helpful to state what your intended goal or purpose was for taking the image (environmental portrait, artistic rendering of subject, documentation, etc.). It’s also helpful if you briefly describe what it is that you like and/or dislike about the image. By providing this information up front, it gives those who are writing the critiques some indication of any specific feedback you’re looking for. In essence, writing your own “mini-critique” (just a few lines) as part of the original post gets the thread off on the right foot.

I’ve been thinking a lot about this over the last couple of days since I commented above. I think being very explicit with both intent in the photo, what I think about it, what I think it conveys, and what I want out of the critique is a great start to receiving helpful feedback.

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Hi,

I can’t wait to read critiques on my work as well as reading those provided to other submitters. I joined NPN a long time ago and learned way more than expected. Even though two different and opposing critiques may show up in a post, digital processing enables one to experiment and try each different option. A critique provides guidance and instruction which are essential ingredients for success as a nature photographer.

The only thing I have disagreed with is:

The poster should not lead or influence the critiquer. When he does he’s in essence critiquing his own image. Ideally the image should stand on it’s own feet. The image is everything and should not need an explanation. If it does then that’s a weakness in the image. I got that from an artist friend during a visit to a museum . Each painting had a small tablet telling you something about it. Many museum goers go from tablet to tablet reading and then looking. She said to just look at the painting and let it speak for itself. I think that applies to NPN as well. However, over time I haven’t followed my own ‘principles’. I didn’t do it because it became frustrating to see people not ‘get’ what I’m trying to say. However, I still believe that by telling them what I think it’s about I’m influencing them to think what I think and that’s not optimal.

I hear what you’re saying. I think I may not have written completely clearly. “What I think about it, what I think it conveys” was meant to clarify “intent”. I think it depends on what you’re going for. I agree that an image should be able to stand on its own feet—especially in an online or real life gallery setting. But if you’re looking for feedback on what you’re going for, I think it’s fair to say what you’re trying to convey.

If you post an image edited to be a high contrast black and white image yet your intent was to convey a sense of calm, then it would be fair to come back and say that the photographer did not accurately convey what they were hoping to and would grow as a creator.

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