The Death of the Photo Art category

[Sandy_Richards-Brown]

re Removal of the “Photo Art” category.

It’s been more than 2 months since the PA category was dumped from NPN, and the images were to be posted in the appropriate Flora, wildlife, Landscape, etc category along with straight images. . I promised myself to remain open-minded, and not say anything for a 2 full months. My tongue is bloody from biting it to stay quiet.

What has happened since is just as Hank and I - and others - predicted in this thread:

Removal of the 'Photo Art' category

Hello everyone, after lengthy discussions with members and @Marc_Ward (the moderator of Photo Art) we have decided to remove this category due to a variety of reasons. The name itself implies that all of the other categories are not ‘art’ The category did not have much participation/visitation so people are less likely to post/visit there There is no way to define what this category was. It implied that if you manipulate your images to a certain level that they had to be in this category, but …

PA has gone by the wayside and has been totally devoured by the “straight” images. As for my own PA images during this 2 month trial, I was careful to post only images that had won major contests, so I don’t believe they were not chosen on NPN because of poor quality. They and other’s
PA images were not chosen because straight images were favored. It’s like comparing apples and oranges - they are simply not in the same category so cannot be judged the same. .

Since PA was dropped 2 months ago, Guess how many EP’s in Wildlife have been from the “PA” genre? ZERO

How many from Landscape? ZERO

How many from Macro? ZERO

How many from Avian? ZERO

How many from Human and Fauna? ZERO

How many from non-Nature? ZERO

How many from the WC? ZERO

How many from Flora? ONE - but Flora has always been open to “PA-ish” images, and there were many, many PA images chosen in the Flora category over the past years.

I’d like to suggest/urge that PA be re-instated, perhaps re-named as “Artistic Rendition” or another of the Titles suggested previously.

If we are trying to increase membership, I can tell you that 12 friends either did not renew or did not re-join after PA was discontinued.

It can certainly be limited to “NATURE” subjects only, if that is the decision - but I believe the PA/ AR category adds a lot of interest, variety, and helps people think “out of the box” - which is always a useful thing in any type of photography.

I’m interested in what others think.

Sandy

[Igor_Doncov]

Sandy, you state that there were zero picks in many categories, but how many submissions were made? What percentage of total submissions were PA images? You would think that the PA images are now getting greater exposure than before, assuming they get into avian and landscape critique galleries.

[Sandy_Richards-Brown]

Igor, at least SOME in every category, from either me or others. In other instances, people said they didn’t even bother to post their PA images in the other galleries, since they never felt they would get any attention. I admit I myself have not posted many images - I’ve gone to other sites - for most of my PA images (and they have been recognized elsewhere).
I guess my feeling is that although David keeps saying that we HAVE to get more members and more comments, but in closing one of the categories, that works to the exact opposite. Take a look at the “Users” category under your “hamburger” menu at the top right of the page to see hoe excruciatingly many members are not posting at all, not visiting at all, not taking part in any way. Doesn’t make sense, to me at least, to cut out categories that used to draw people.

Take a look at the old PA image gallery -
http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/ic.cgi?a=vg7&start=1&c=1240&CGISESSID=a6beb941938ddec60bc0716013f2e0ff&u=7609

what happened to all these people? I think some/more than a few don’t post at all any longer. Would re-opening the PA image critique Gallery draw any of them back to NPN again?

Sandy.

[Sandy_Richards-Brown]

Reply from Kathy Snead, posted with her permission (She has injured shoulder, making it difficult to type) :
(Replies from others too:)

I enjoyed Photo Art but like being able to put my version of it in the regular galleries.

Kathy Snead

16h

Sorry- didn’t mean to hit enter. Anyway, I don’t always look at all the galleries so if photo art pieces are going into landscape or non nature, I probably am missing some of them. I don’t like that part.

Reply

Patricia Brundage, MNEC

1

10h

Hi all. Yes, I miss the PA category. I have placed a few images taken in Sony’s illustration mode into the regular categories but not the creative ones designed or created by me using a lot of software… Definitely miss seeing what each of you envision and create…

I do understand that David is trying to streamline the NPN site The return of the personal portfolio’s is greatly appreciated. I have yet to figure out how to send an email directly to the person posting or replying, or how to revise and post what I suggest in my critique, but will eventually. Would be nice to be able to see each day’s NEW images from all categories when you open the NPN site, Also wish that when you click on the name of an image it pulls that image up into view. Oh well, things change and I have to learn to use new technology.

Feel we have to accept and appreciate what NPN gives us, i.e. a place to post and get critiques on a majority of our images, as well as a place to view some of the world’s best photography.

Pat

Steve Kennedy

8h

I have enjoyed the PA gallery over the years and was sad to see it go. I didn’t post in it much but I loved seeing the creativity of the posts. My participation overall has been down the last few years, though that doesn’t have anything to do with NPN. Now that I’m retired (FINALLY!!!) I plan to have camera in hand and post here far more.

I like the new NPN though I find several things to be either more difficult, confusing or simply not available. I suspect this is mostly a learning curve problem and I’ll figure these out as I participate more.

Patricia_Brundage:

Would be nice to be able to see each day’s NEW images from all categories when you open the NPN site

Pat, I agree with you here. I would also like to see the individual stats of members, such as how many images they posted and how many comments they’ve made. I do like the “No Replies” link so I can see the images posted that haven’t seen any comments. I do try to comment on these as I can.

Reply

Kathy Snead

8h

Sandy. I see my comments in brown but am not sure they are coming through. I am ambivalent like Pat. On one hand, I like the freedom of posting artistically (I hope) altered images in the regular galleries. It saves worrying about whether it should be posted in Photo Art as where do you draw the line. On the other hand, I don’t check landscape and non nature much so I suppose I am missing some. I tried to post this earlier from my phone but Im not sure if it posted or not. Trying to do as much as possible with my phone right now as I can easily left hand it and save my right art, but this site just isn’t phone friendly for posting. Best, Kathy Snead

[David_Kingham]

First off, we will not be bringing the Photo Art category back, that decision has been made and it is what I feel is best for the site. I will make a small compromise; I have added a tag for photo-art that you can add to any image. I went through and added the tag to some of the posts so you can see how this will work, feel free to go back and add the tags to your images as you see fit. You can see all the images tagged photo-art here: https://community.naturephotographers.network/tags/photo-art . This tag is not required based upon the amount of processing that has been done, etc., this is only for those of you that are interested in seeing these types of images all together. So if you have an image that you want to fall into this category, please add the tag.

@Sandy_Richards-Brown

I was careful to post only images that had won major contests, so I don’t believe they were not chosen on NPN because of poor quality.

Editors pick is not intended to award an image purely on aesthetics. It is about rewarding members for their growth, participation, etc. This is not a camera club and I absolutely do not want it to go down that path. EP is not a competition. Did you ever consider that the moderators might just pick a different image because it is more suitable for a pick that week? I fully stand behind the moderators picks and find your accusations insulting to them.

@Sandy_Richards-Brown

Since PA was dropped 2 months ago, Guess how many EP’s in Wildlife have been from the “PA” genre? ZERO

@Sandy_Richards-Brown

people said they didn’t even bother to post their PA images in the other galleries, since they never felt they would get any attention. I admit I myself have not posted many images - I’ve gone to other sites - for most of my PA images

I see a correlation here, no photo-art images posted = no picks. It’s self defeating behavior. The category was not getting enough exposure so we merged it with other categories, then you all stopped posting this type of photo, why?

@Sandy_Richards-Brown

I don’t always look at all the galleries so if photo art pieces are going into landscape or non nature, I probably am missing some of them. I don’t like that part.

@Kathy_Snead the new tag will take care of your concern, you can now see all the images grouped together under the tag.

@Sandy_Richards-Brown

Definitely miss seeing what each of you envision and create…

@Patricia_Brundage the tag will also alleviate your concerns.

@Sandy_Richards-Brown

I have yet to figure out how to send an email directly to the person posting or replying

@Patricia_Brundage to message another member simply click on their avatar and a little window will popup, from there click message

@Sandy_Richards-Brown

or how to revise and post what I suggest in my critique,

@Patricia_Brundage the easiest way is to simply reply to your post and add the image to the reply. If you like you can also edit your original post to add the revised image. Just look for the pencil icon below your original post.

@Sandy_Richards-Brown

Would be nice to be able to see each day’s NEW images from all categories when you open the NPN site

@Patricia_Brundage and @Kathy_Snead you can do this! Just look for the New button at the top of the homepage, or if you only want to see what’s new from a particular category, go to the category first, then click new.

@Steve_Kennedy please let me know how I can help you learn how to use the forums, I am more than happy to help.

@Sandy_Richards-Brown

I would also like to see the individual stats of members, such as how many images they posted and how many comments they’ve made.

@Kathy_Snead you can the user stats by clicking on the users avatar, when the small card pops up, just click the avatar again, this will bring up their full profile where you can view their stats of how many posts, etc. along with all of their activity; what they have posted, replied to, etc.

[Sandy_Richards-Brown]

David, thanks for the PA tag - at least we can now find the other Artistic Rendition images that way.
Of course moderators may choose any image for an EP - but a discussion of the things they look for and value might be useful for the new people.
“something different” " just odd" “unusually artistic” “unusual perspective” and more etc are all good reasons.

In the past, @Bill_Fach and the other flora Mods wrote a brief blurb each week about what struck them about the week’s EP. I, and I’m sure others, learned a lot from that - how to see things we might have missed, or appreciate a new technique. I’d love to see that revived.
Sandy

[Kathy_Snead]

David
Good idea. That should work.