The photographer is looking for generalized feedback about the aesthetic and technical qualities of their image.
Description
Hummingbird in the snow. I live at 2000 ft elevation in foothills of the Olympic Mtns. Hummingbirds (rufous and anna’s) came back to our feeders a week ago. They are probably sorry!
Specific Feedback
Any suggestions always appreciated. Heavy crop. Processed in Topaz Photo AI and LRC.
Technical Details
Z9 (just arrived today)
Nikkor Z100-400mm with 1.4 TC
1/1000sec
ISO 4000
f/8
560mm
Nice shot – it looks a little put off by the weather. (And we think we have a basis for complaining…)
I’m surprised by the noise and artefacts, though. I would think the Z9 would be excellent for noise. There are areas that are cleaner and others with noise, “wormlike” structures that used to be seen in the NR software of the last century, and strange patterns and color noise in the bird. I’m wondering what you think of it? Can you give us a rundown of your processing? Did Topaz AI make decisions for you or did you have parameters to set? (I haven’t used it so don’t know how it works.)
Aw, poor little thing. Looks a bit put out at the weather. Can’t say I blame it at all. I’m sick of snow!
Diane touched on some of the issues with the processing and I echo her sentiments. You might try the new denoise action in Lightroom that was just released yesterday. I’ve run it on some of my own hummingbird images and found that it deals with details differently than Topaz does. I think a tweak with either software and you can get the feathers on the breast to look more natural when viewed large on screen.
That perch is really something. I have a prickle of fear and tension just looking at it. All the drops of snow/rain really make this a standout shot - hummingbirds aren’t usually photographed in this situation and so bravo for getting out there to get it. And with new gear, too!
I am new to editing beyond just the basic adjustments in LRC. This image did not require any distraction removal so I did not go into PS. Diane’s comments were surprizing to me., as I thought the image was really nice. I enlarged the image and do see the color noise on the breast of the bird. However, I still don’t understand where to look for the wormlike structures mentioned in her comment. I will reprocess using the new feature in LRC. Could the color noise be due to the adding of texture to the subject mask.? The Z9 was loaned to me by a friend and I am trying to decide if it is worth the price. Please point out how to see the wormlike structures.
I’ll let Diane chime back in about what she’s describing/seeing. Looking closer at the photo, I see Topaz missed areas of noise in the background as well, something I’ve noticed it doing with some of my photos, too. Usually I tweak the settings until those patches disappear. Topaz can also add weird haloes and artifacts with some sharpening models, so I have to be careful there, too. When I send an image to Topaz I never add any clarity, texture or sharpening and that seems to work best.
The new Lightroom denoise seems to treat raw details differently in its process although they haven’t done any updating to sharpening on its own. I tried pre and post denoise sharpening and didn’t see any difference in the resulting DNG file. I think it will take a little more experimentation between it and the Topaz products. I’m on their old separate Sharpen and Denoise apps and not Photo AI, so things might be different for you.
Cool about the loaner. Everyone here that has the Z9 loves it although it is a beast, isn’t it? Bigger than my head!!
Hi Dan. I’m seeing the noise and kind of grainy look to the bird as well as the little areas on the side that Kris mentioned. I haven’t used this camera, but being the latest generation I’d expect the noise to be fairly easily handled at those settings unless you had to bring the exposure up a lot in post processing. It would be interesting if you could post the RAW file in the Image Processing Challenge forum and ask people to just do the noise reduction and explain exactly what software they used and what settings. I think it would be educational for a lot of us.
Help. I still don’t see the background noise missed by Topaz. When enlarged, the whole image is grainy, most noticeable in the background. Otherwise, what I see is a shallow DOF and snowflakes that consequently look that blobs that are of of focus. I own a Z6ii which would not have allow the severe crop of the is image from the Z9 and retained the sharpness. Interesting for me is that the combo of the lens and the Z9 seems to balance better in my hands than the Z6ii , even though the latter is much lighter weight and smaller.
OK. I have reprocessed the raw image using Topaz AI - letting it pick the strengths of DN and sharpening. Then I took the same image to LRC and the new DN processing, with no masking or sharpening. I can see the difference. The LR rendering does a better job. So the original image issues could have been from masking and adding texture and brightening in LR after Topaz or the strength of the settings in Topaz. Where do you post for the Image Processing Challenge forum?
Sorry for all the input on noise and other possibilities for what we’re seeing but rest assure, we’re only trying to help you solve the issue you’re dealing with.
I used to have the Topaz Photo AI “All In One” bundle package and I had to ask them to trade for the separate Denoise AI and Sharpen AI because the Photo AI version had no control over anything, it was either full denoise or none, and full sharpen or none, it might be fine for some people but not so for images coming out of a camera like the Z9.
BTW, Topaz traded with me “No questions asked and no additional money”, and, they did it within a couple of hours after I contacted them. I had to use their online chat request but the response was pretty quick.
Just an observation here but I’ve seen very similar results from over sharpening using that same Photo AI software. digital noise was minor but the sharpening software caused a lot of that same effect. That may not be the case here though, it’s just an observation.
If you want to get a specific person’s attention you need to use this >> @Diane_Miller (type the @ symbol and a list of the people that have responded in that thread will pop up, then just select the one you want) or, highlight a block of text of theirs and use the “Quote” link above the text or reply directly to their comment with the reply arrow in their comment block.
You can also just use the yellow “+ New Post” button for posting a new topic/image and select “Processing Challenge” as the category (without using the link I provided), I provided the link so you could read about how it works.
I’m sure we can get to the bottom of this, part of it may be a simple matter of establishing a good workflow from Lr to Denoise and back to Lr. (or maybe just use the new Lr denoise tool?).
Hmmm…I don’t see it. @Dennis_Plank and @Kris_Smith are moderators, they might be able to help since they have the tools needed to see what’s going on with the image not showing up.
What’s the resolution of your monitor? Is it 1920x1080 (FHD) or 2560x1440 (2K)?, and what is the size? 21", or 24" or ? (measured diagonally across the screen) Do you know if it’s a digital, LED, Analog or ??
The reason I ask is that some monitors might not show details like noise or over sharpening as well as others. Knowing what yours is might help to explain why you’re not seeing any noise.
@Merv I use an Apple M1 Mac Mini with a 24 inch studio monitor. I don’t think my equipment is the problem. It is just that my 76 year old eyes and brain don’t know what to look for. I will learn and this site is a great place for me to be. I think the raw image did make it thru and I reposted an edited version as well.
Ah, I understand!
My eyes aren’t what they used to be either but they’re only 63 years old
We do have ways of training ours eyes but we have to know what we’re looking for (so to speak)
I’m working on your raw mage now. I must say, it’s a great looking image.
I kind of like the larger environmental view as well, maybe a 50% crop might work well.
I’ll play around with it.
Thanks, Daniel
BTW, I think the raw file you uploaded just took some time to show up because of the file size.
I haven’t had time to look for the raw file, but I think you may not have taken the best steps in processing. With the excellent sensors these days, the steps to excellent IQ are simple:
Expose correctly, so you don’t need to lighten things too much in processing, as that will bring out noise that is inherent in the darkest tones.
Make the necessary (but hopefully minimal) tonal adjustments in the raw converter – inspecting at 100%. Be aware of haloing with strong Shadows and Highlights moves.
Try the new Denoise in LR/ACR but with skepticism and careful inspection.
Skip the above step or use a virtual copy without that adjustment and do a comparison: Open in PS and do Topaz Denoise if necessary. Compare the different algorithms/models. The best choice may vary with different images. Execute it on a new layer.
Copy that layer and, if you really need it, try Topaz Sharpen. Be very careful and decide at 100%. The only real sharpening occurs in the acquisition. The appearance of sharpening is done with artefacts. They can be very good sometimes but they can be easily misused. Same with tonal control and exposure.
The last 2 steps “might” be accomplished with this Photo AI (or other “bundled quick-fix” programs) but from what I have read, it does not meet high-level expectations.
You said you did things in Topaz software and then went to LR’s Develop module. Did the Topaz thing leave you with a raw (.dng) file? If not, you don’t have the control you would with by using the raw file up front. You want to use LR’s Develop module for the original raw file. And I would be very careful about masking, adding texture or brightening in LR with masks. I would wait and do those things in PS with layers so I can edit the masks or otherwise moderate or redo steps. Anything you do to a raw file in LR is baked in when you go to PS. And anything you do in LR to a file that has already been “converted” is the same as using the ACR adjustment filter in PS. Much better to do it to a raw file.
OK, that’s good to know, about the return of a raw file. But I’d be very skeptical of that program. It had good intentions and might work in some cases, but hasn’t risen to the level of the separate DeNoise and Sharpen programs.
I’ll go out an underexpose something at high ISO and have a look at the new LR denoise thing, but I suspect, sort of like everything else, it may work wonders on one image as prove as mess on a different one. I think my favorite thing in all this digital processing might well be the ability to view an image at 1:1 resolution.
This stuff may look like a steep hill with loose boulders, but you are getting into it at a wonderful time with the current tools and possibilities. Think of it as having a good climbing rope instead of an old piece of your grandmother’s clothesline.
Hi Daniel
I know by now you maybe on overload, with all the helpful comments (and truly believe they were helpful). You made a great effort to photograph this Hummingbird. Even with Z9 63Mg file a 73% crop is asking a lot. I downloaded your file into DXO Photo Lab 6 and used the DeepPROIME XD setting in Auto mod. The crop is a 16 by 9 (2328 by1306) pix. and Bilinear output sharping. See what you think.
I did not adjust the shot or use any brushes to sharpen the head or branch. This was just to show noise reduction and concern about over sharpened the breast feathers.
I really like the photograph.
Peter
Wow, that is an amazing photograph as processed by @peter. Congratulations Daniel and welcome to NPN. The people here are very generous with their feedback and advice! Please post more, and submit critiques as you are able!
Thank you for this. I have learned a few things from this exercise. First, the Nikon Z9 is a very capable camera. Second, severe cropping definitely increases the noise. Third, sharpening unless done very selectively, may increase noise. Fourth, when comparing noise reduction tools, the new LR option and DxO were both better than Topaz AI for this image. Fifth, a pleasing photographic story can be told by an imperfect image. Most importantly, NPN is a great site, full of generous photographers willing to share their knowledge.
